Blackberries continued!

Last night's shiur was perhaps the most lively ever. 

Thanks for your participation!

Here's a summary:

The Gemara infers from the mishna - that despite the fact that it is forbidden to remove the extra berries on YT - if one did so, the hadaas is kosher. (How the Gemara knows this, is discussed later on in this blog entry)

When, asks the Gemara, did the berrries turn black?

If we say that this happened on Erev Yom Tov, stayed black and then were removed on YT, then this mishna seems to be teaching the principle of דיחוי מעיקרא לא הוי דחוי.

Problem: This would solve R. Yirmiya's question - why did he not see this in the mishna?

This forces the Gemara to consider that the berries could not have been black on Erev Yom Tov.

Instead, it must be that the berries became black on Yom Tov itself.

If so, however, the hadas would have a status of נראה ונדחה - ie it was fit, and then disqualified.  And if the din in the mishna is that the hadas is kosher, then even a case of נראה ונדחה is kosher, HOW MUCH MORESO would a case of דיחוי מעיקרא BE KOSHER!

If so, this also cannot be the scenario of the mishna, because if so, R. Yirimiya would have surely seen an answer to his question in the mishna. The reason that a case of נראה ונדחה being kosher leads automatically to דיחוי מעיקרא being kosher, is that it is more of a chidush to say something that was kosher, then rejected, can be readmitted as kosher - than saying that something that was never kosher can become kosher.

Recall our comparison to people applying for citizenship: new applicant has better chance of becoming a citizen than someone who was a citizen, but who lost his citizenship....

How did the Gemara know that removal of the berries was kosher even if done on YT?

Aruch L'ner: The reason for berry removal being forbidden is it's like making a vessel/kli on YT.  If we were to invalidate the hadas which had its berries removed on YT, then by definition, it wouldn't be a "tikkun kli" - making a vessel!  Therefore, it must be that the hadas is kosher...